Mark Fischler (Part 1) – Building a Just World: How Our Laws Express Our Collective Values, and the Challenge of Uplifting Our Values, Law, and Society

Mark Fischler Building a Just World

Constitutional law expert and criminal justice professor Mark Fischler has a thirst for justice and a gift for teaching. With cogency and passion, Mark explains that law is not the absolute that we perhaps thought, but an ever changing reflection of the values we hold as a society. Law is a developmental process, and will benefit from our own dedication to inner moral development. Mark shows how the law can (and has) become ever more inclusive, with the potential to serve and uphold the dignity of all peoples, all beings. Because of its abstract clauses, there is room in the Constitution to interpret the law in ways that are attuned with our pluralistic society. Mark calls on us to come together and decide what we value as a people—there is no mandate in democracy that all decision making power must reside in the hands of the Supreme Court, which has only had the sort of unilateral power it enjoys today since the 1950s.

This is no dry, legalistic conversation, but a truly illuminating vision of the potential of the law to embody justice, inclusivity, compassion. It is also a solid overview of where we have come from and where we are now, referencing many landmark rulings of the Supreme Court. Finally, this is spiritually inspiring as well—Mark tells the story of the transformational epiphany he had as a young man that led to his career as a public defender, onto the spiritual path, and eventually to become a well-respected, award-winning professor of criminal justice. Mark’s perspective on the law is far ranging, embracing human rights, animal rights, the rights of all beings. It comes from a place of deep care and compassion: “What is the happiness that the Declaration of Independence talks about, what is suffering?” Be inspired by Mark’s wise and knowledgeable teachings and the potential of the law to create a just society for all. Recorded January 4, 2023.

“Law is our collective coming together and deciding what we value as a people.”

❤️​ Our podcast is a labor of love funded solely by co-hosts Roger and John. If you appreciate the value we bring, please help us keep these meaningful conversations alive.

Buy Roger and John A Coffee

Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1

  • Introducing professor of criminal justice and constitutional law expert Mark Fischler (01:31)
  • How did Mark get into constitutional law? (03:45)
  • At the foundation of legal theory is the question: natural law or positive law? How Ken Wilber reduced the cognitive dissonance going on around this for Mark (06:44)
  • Law is a lawyer-driven process and the action is in the criminal courts (07:52)
  • Mark’s 1996 transformational epiphany of self-knowledge around the judgmental character of his mind (09:16)
  • How psychotherapy relates to Mark’s practice as a public defender and taking a bodhisattva approach to being there for all beings (13:59)
  • The deepening of Mark’s spiritual practice: Am I supposed to leave everything behind, give it all up? (21:08)
  • “The demon spoke” (Socrates): leaving public defender hood and the beginning of Mark’s spiritual journey (25:03)
  • Miguel Luiz’ Four Agreements: principles upon which to life your life (29:35)
  • Being of service to others is the foundational piece driving Mark to deepen his understanding of the law and in his role as professor (35:08)
  • “We’re in a stage of pluralism, but we sure don’t act that way;”Justice Alito’s decision in the Dobbs case, overturning Roe v. Wade (37:02)
  • Can we start to have a conversation about the law, from a 30,000’ point of view, transcending and including perspectives, even the Integral one? (38:20)
  • Giving the Supreme Court so much power to make legal decisions is only as old as the 1950s (39:46) 
  • Was Roe v. Wade the best way to go? We needed to have a more honest conversation from the start (43:37)
  • Human rights and how developmental stages play out in the justice system (46:35)
  • Roger highlights the points Mark has brought up and their antidotes: absolutism, pluralism, the need for honest conversations, integrating different points of view (48:12)
  • Teaching civil liberties to a class of diverse first generation students so that they feel heard and valued (51:47)
  • Understanding Alito’s point of view, emotional contagion, and how Alito and other Supreme Court justices do not feel respected or heard (55:18)
  • Black nationalism: being completely independent of the system (58:40)

Resources & References – Part 1

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.



Mark Fischler Building a Just World

Mark Fischler is a Professor of Criminal Justice and current program coordinator for the criminal justice and criminology programs at Plymouth State University. Prior to joining the Plymouth State faculty, he practiced law, representing poor criminal defendants for the New Hampshire Public Defender’s Office. Mark left the law after being guided by the Universe to focus on his Spiritual Awareness for almost two years. Upon his return, he was called to become a teacher and accepted a job at Plymouth State in 2003.

 Since then, Mark has worked extensively with alternative theoretical models in law, constitutional law, and higher education, and has published on integral applications to teaching, being a lawyer, and legal theory. In his time at the university, he’s been a chair, Dean, and Interim VP. His focus in the classroom is ethics and criminal procedure and constitutional law. He is well respected for a teaching philosophy that emphasizes recognizing the humanity and dignity of each student. Professor Fischler was awarded the outstanding teaching award at his university in 2014. He currently offers a weekly Spiritual Inquiry class for college students.


Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell


 Presented by iAwake Technologies’ innovative, sound tech infused, brain wave entraining audio track

The Universe is Friendly!


“Really helps you get in the wonder state, where it is much easier to work on blockages.”

~ Janita Zoer

Cover Art of The Universe is Friendly! from iAwake Technologies
Listen to a sample of 01 Deep Space (Delta)
Listen to sample of 02 Oceanic (Theta, ASMR)

“The delta track is the most effective iAwake program yet for helping me get quality sleep. When I want to sleep, it consistently helps me to quickly access a state of deep sleep, and I awaken refreshed, energized, and without any grogginess. The delta track is also great for a deep relaxation meditation wherein I completely clear my mind – my meditations with this program were deep even by iAwake standards. And I think law of attraction practitioners will enjoy using the theta track for visualizing manifestations and goal setting. It doesn’t merely play space music – it takes the listener into the space of possibilities from which creation happens.”

~ Michael Halbfish

iAwake Technologies was founded in 2010 with the mission of helping the world to heal, wake up, and evolve, through creating and offering cutting-edge, transformational technologies and promoting and inspiring their skillful use in our daily lives.

iAwake’s unique approach to session design entrains both our nervous and our subtle energy systems by combining traditional entrainment methods with newer applications based on the power of resonance. In addition to increasing intelligence, creativity, flow, and skillfulness in practically any activity that requires the human body-mind, with iAwake Technologies, we enter into deep healing brainwave states almost immediately while listening to these audio tracks.

To see what we are talking about, download a free sample of Stealing Flow’s Warm-up track here for a 25-minute, full-spectrum, whole-brain workout.

“I have enjoyed many [meditation technologies] but my VERY favorite meditations come from a company called iAwake Technologies. The science behind their technology is impeccably researched and I don’t think I have ever gone so deep into my practice as when I use their meditation tracks. Actually I bought so many and sent so many people to their website, they wrote to find out who the heck I was!”

~ Colette Baron-Reid, world-renowned intuitive counselor, psychic medium, author, TV personality, and radio host. They call her the Oracle.